Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:26 am

Another example:

In case of an arrangement in two voices I would apply these settings:

Settings_2.png
Settings_2.png (4.41 KiB) Viewed 1902 times


By checkings <Auto> and <Stems> I get

a) the chords at a default value above the highest note, including additional space for the stems.
b) the lyrics at a default value below the lowest note, including additional space for the stems.

(This time I didn't check the auto box for the chords to avoid them clashing with the right hand fingerings p i m a. Could otherwise have been solved by editing the default value.)

Intending to save some space, I decreased the lyric line pitch from 5 to 4.

Result:

Yesterday_2.png
Yesterday_2.png (7.68 KiB) Viewed 1902 times


For a greater amount of files I activate these functions for batch processing by checking the unlabeled boxes at the left edge.

Kind regards,
Jerry
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:47 am

Hi Jerry,

You are really amazing!
Your program-add-on can be very useful to many people, I'm sure.

There are some problems though, with the meaning (c.q. understanding) of the controls in the user interface and their possible effects.
These problems are merely inherent to the matter at hand; as is pointed out in the previous discussion (of a year ago).
IMHO it is worthwhile to put some joint effort in designing a less ambiguous interface.
Starting with the terms.

"Align"
Although "Align Spacing" is used before in the Encore interface - indicating distribution of horizontal space between notes - I think this is the wrong word and ambiguous.
Encore uses "Center Systems" and "Center Staves" - indicating distribution of vertical space between notes - this term is even worse.

"Distribute space"
I propose to use the word "Distribute", for distributing the available space after (horizontal) or below (vertical) the chosen objects.
"Distribute horizontal space", "Distribute vertical space".
Distributing would avoid the score to 'grow off the paper'.

"Set space"
I propose to use the word "Set", for setting to a specified amount, the space after (horizontal) or below (vertical) the chosen objects.

Choose objects
The interface would require the user to specify (choose) the objects, to which the operation will be applied. Generally, the objects after or below those will be moved by the operation.

Possible problems
  • In general, people take too little space for their notation + lyrics + chord symbols.
  • Your 2nd example shows notes with ledger lines, lyrics need a lot of space.
  • Imagine a score with multiple voices, with different lyrics per voice
  • 'Auto' assumes understanding of the operation and its possible results; I don't have that.
  • Which unit of measure is used for 'Top' and 'Pitch', in each of the three controls?
  • Will the controls in this dialog indicate 'space between' or 'space including' the objects?
  • Which objects does the operation take into account: All possible lyrics lines for all staves of all systems, or only those which are currently in use (think of the many possibilities in between 'all on all on all' and 'only used'!)

Anyway, your tool would be a great improvement for Encore.

Kind regards
Eveline
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:46 pm

Hi Eveline!

Thanks for your suggestions, but please don't care too much about the arrangement of my tool interface. It's just meant for my own usage, and the labels are short to provide enough room for other tools and diagnostic data sharing the place.

My primary intention, rather, is to confirm the need of the requested feature, and to give some application examples according to my own requirement.

I didn't mention yet that an implementation in ENCORE would reqiure only very few lines of code, and, for that matter, the elaboration of particular details should be possible as well.

Kind regards,
Jerry
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:27 am

Hi Everybody,
and a Happy New Year!

Eveline, since you seem to be interested in a more detailed conception of a concerning user interface, I created this outline.

So, what do you think of it?

Set_Vertical_Spacing.png
Set_Vertical_Spacing.png (34.79 KiB) Viewed 1886 times

Kind regards,
Jerry
Last edited by Jerry on Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:06 am

Hi everybody!

By the way, here are some general thoughts about this thread:

After all these questions which have been invoked above, this feature conveyed to be very difficult. And as a result, nothing happened in over a year.

But I don't agree with that because most of these objections imply this item to be in a higher state of advancement, which nobody has been asking for (see below: STEP 5).

It's a great advantage of the OOP technologie to turn software development into a process of evolution. Therefore we can find the final solution step by step, and we don't have to wait until the whole discussion will be finished up.

Well, if we want to get any steps ahead, we first must be aware which possible steps there are:


STEP 1 (That's what we currently have)
--------
If we create a new file without using a template, the vertical spacing values are set to defaults,
which can NOT be accessed by the user.


STEP 2
--------
If we create a new file without using a template, the vertical spacing values are set to defaults,
which CAN be accessed by the user, in advance or afterwards.
Any change affects the whole score and all staves.


STEP 3
--------
The settings can be saved to individual config files (see e.g. Adobe InDesign).
This will also enable us to save manual changes and assign them to other files.


STEP 4
--------
We have options for auto adjustment
(scanning the line/score for highest/lowest pitch, number of chord/lyric lines)


STEP 5
--------
Any change affects the WHOLE score and ALL staves or optionally only PARTICULAR staves.


STEP 6
--------
Any change affects the WHOLE score or optionally only PARTS of the score (selected pages/lines).


Now that we see these single possibilities, we can decide which of them we want to have immediately and which of them can wait. And as one thing for sure, there's no necessity to say that we can't have any of them just because we can't find an agreement for the last one.

Kind regards,
Jerry


(Edited Jan-06-2011)
Last edited by Jerry on Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:50 am

Hi Jerry,
Happy New Year!

Thanks for your input.
The development path you describe seems feasible to me.

New dialogue design
The new dilaogue design is an improvement. At the moment I have not enough time to study it the way it deserves. I will give my comments for now from 'first sight' , if you permit me. Ripe and green, concept and detail, function and form comments, all mixed.

  • The dialogue text and lay-out assumes the user is aware of the concept and purpose of the function behind it. I'm afraid that is to optimistic.
  • Above (outside) the four control boxes, a text, with choice like this might be useful:
    • Redistribute available vertical space evenly between selected object types (in this case, the 'set' controls should be greyed out). A warning might be useful: if currently objects overlap, the result may not fit on page or cause objects to overlap on other positions.
    • Set the vertical space between selected object types. A warning might be useful: the result may not fit on page. Manual re-pagination may be required.
  • The name of the control box (each control box must have a name: Systems, Staves, Chords, Lyrics) in Encore is usually placed ON the control box border line.
  • The checkbox in the left top corner of each control box should be outside, to the left of (or above) the control box. If the checkbox is checked, the controls in the control box come available. Otherwise, they are greyed out.
  • The check box should have a label (each control must have a name, expressed in a label) : "Include system spacing" or "Include system spacing in vertical space distribution operation" and so on.
  • IMHO 'Top Margin' should be 'Set top margin to:'
  • Same remark for
    'Set system spacing to:',
    Set Staff spacing to: ',
    'Set position of chord line 1 to:',
    'Set minimum distance from chord to highest note to:',
    'Set chord line-in-between-spacing to:',
    'Set additional stem space to:',
    'Set position of lyric line 1 to:',
    'Set minimum distance from lyric to lowest note to:',
    'Set lyric line-in-between-spacing to:'.
  • Define the area for 'Top margin' and 'Top staff'; Several possible (mis-)interpretations
    • space from top paper edge to the top line of the top staff of the top system (ledger lines not counted)
    • space from top paper edge to the highest note of the top staff of the top system (Chord symbols not taken into account)
    • space from top paper edge to the highest note which is possible on the top staff of the top system (leaves space for two or more octave of ledger lines, even if there are none)
    • space from top paper edge to the topmost line of Chord symbols which actually exists at the top staff of the top system
    • space from top paper edge to the topmost line of Chord symbols which is possible at the top staff of the top system (leaves space for 8 lines of chord symbols, even if there is none)
  • Similar question for staff spacing and system spacing: define the area for each object.
  • Are lyric lines supposed to stay below all staff lines? Or below the middle staff line? Or can they go everywhere?
  • Are chord symbol lines supposed to stay above all staff lines? Or above the middle staff line?
  • Please identify the unit of measurement for System spacing (half spaces?)
  • Please relate 'Points' to 'half spaces'
  • Shouldn't the controls 'Auto adjust' and 'Set spacing to:' be governed by radio buttons per control box (they can never be chosen both in one control box)
  • 'System Spacing', shouldn't the label 'Auto align' be: 'Auto adjust' (equal to label in other control boxer) or change all four to "redistribute available vertical space evenly" (with above mentioned remarks)
  • Chord line spacing setting should have unit of measurement

And happy new year to all of you
kind regards
Eveline
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:42 am

Hi Eveline!

The form of your reply is completely sufficient (we won't print that as a book).

As a first part of my answer, I send you the new dialog according to your arguments.

I followed every of your seggestions, except for one:
The checkbox in the left top corner of each control box should be outside, to the left of (or above) the control box. If the checkbox is checked, the controls in the control box come available. Otherwise, they are greyed out.


I Kept the checkbox inside the groupbox, to get a consistent appearence the 'Notes/Change Duration' dialog.

Kind regards,
Jerry


Notes_Change_Duration.png
Notes_Change_Duration.png (21.55 KiB) Viewed 1881 times


Draft #1

Set_Vertical_Spacing_1.png
Set_Vertical_Spacing_1.png (58.73 KiB) Viewed 1851 times
Last edited by Jerry on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:49 am

Hi Jerry,

Great, thank you!
Be assured: I don't mean to offend you, if my language seems harsh or rude. I writing brief, just because I'm flooded with work and still want to input as much as possible, for this important development of yours.

You probably missed this:
Denkster wrote:Please identify the unit of measurement for System spacing (half spaces?)

Many entry boxes still lack the unit.

Jerry wrote:I Kept the checkbox inside the group box, to get a consistent appearance the 'Notes/Change Duration' dialog.

I'm afraid you picked a bad example.
I discovered many unfortunate layout design choices in Encore. This is one of them, IMHO.
Because this (on/off check of a control group) controls the whole control group being switched on/off, the on/off check of a control group must be outside close to, or on the control group border.
When it is inside is difficult to understand the meaning and functionality of the dialog.

Definitions

Did you figure out the definitions of 'Top Margin', 'Position of Lyric line 1', 'Position of Chord line 1' yet?
IMHO these are vital. See:
Denkster wrote:Several possible (mis-)interpretations ..


Keep up the good work!
Is there any chance we will see this new functionality in Encore before dying? :wink:

Kind regards
Eveline
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:12 pm

Hi Eveline!

No, I didn't miss these items. It was simply that I saw some new snow falling and decided to have a little ski trip before nightfall. Therefore I tried to end it up quickly by confining myself to the design issues, leaving out the physical stuff.

The units of measurement are always identical to the first one of a box. I didn't complete them because it's just a tentative draft, and in case of a change it would be wasting time to move them all around.

I'm not sure where exactly you expect the check boxes to be. Perhaps like one of these?

Kind regards,
Jerry

P.S.: other items coming soon

Draft #2

Set_Vertical_Spacing_2.png
Set_Vertical_Spacing_2.png (56.51 KiB) Viewed 1856 times


Draft #3

Set_Vertical_Spacing_3.png
Set_Vertical_Spacing_3.png (57.26 KiB) Viewed 1856 times
Last edited by Jerry on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:47 pm

Jerry wrote: saw some new snow falling and decided to have a little ski trip before nightfall.
Yes!
That is 'having a life'!

Jerry wrote:I'm not sure where exactly you expect the check boxes to be. Perhaps like one of these?

Thank you!
The first one seems clearest to me.
I hope other people agree, one can never be sure about the impact of a design without testing on 'real' users.

Keep up the good work and take care on the skis!

kind regards
Eveline
Denkster denkt door
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby polarbreeze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:52 am

Denkster wrote:The first one seems clearest to me.
I hope other people agree, one can never be sure about the impact of a design without testing on 'real' users.
The first one seems clearest to me too - actually positioned right on the frame.

I have to say, though, that I think the original idea is intuitive too (ie at the top just inside the frame that it enables) - provided that it is the only check box in that frame.

Some of Encore's dialogs place the enabling check box just above and outside the frame, which is more liable to be confusing and an unfortunate choice. But a lot depends on the exact presentation, the graphical treatment (eg shading) etc.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:01 pm

Hi everybody!

At step three of the development path above we need a combo box and a file dialog to load and save the settings. In my German version of Adobe InDesign they call it 'Dokumentvorgabe' with means template (Benutzerdefiniert = custom, user-defined).

Since I'm not a native English speaker I would like to know which term you suggest in this context. (It should not of course be confused with a score file template.)

Kind regards,
Jerry


InDesign_Neues_Dokument_1.png
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby polarbreeze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:00 am

Jerry wrote:Hi everybody!
At step three of the development path above we need a combo box and a file dialog to load and save the settings.
I think all the settings should be saved as part of the score file, not as some separate entity. And, by extension, saving them as part of the score template, or the default score, will allow the user to recall them for later use.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:42 am

Hi Polarbreeze!

You're doing exactly what I want the user to prevent from, in particular by finding a meaningful term for this feature: you're confusing score template with <Dokumentvorgabe>.

Here's the difference:

Suppose you want to print a book containing 20 full scores, including vocals, piano, lead guitar (standard notation/tab), rhythm guitar (standard notation/tab), horns, bass (standard notation/tab), and drums. Naturally, you will use a score template.

After finishing the arrangements they'll have idividual repeatings, coda phrases, endings, measure settings, and meter changes which neither can be copied nor received from a file template.

Now you're going to create the single part scores by using <File><Extract Part>. And as a result, you'll have 140 score files with completely unwanted line spacings. To copy/paste each voice part into a new template is entirely out of the question because it would require to reconstruct the whole individual work mentioned before.

And here lies the advantage of the feature <Dokumentvorgabe>:

- Load the file
- Call <Score><Set Line Spacing>
- Select a <Dokumentvorgabe> according to the voice part
- Click <OK> and the settings will be assigned to the file

Only four steps (for each file!) instead of endless tiring manual work!

(Actually, this calls for a batch processing tool. But after all we're currently talking about STEP 3 and its possibilities.)


Other conceivable usage:

Unifying scores from different sources (imported MIDI-files, files created by other people, files having a different page setup)

Kind regards,
Jerry
Last edited by Jerry on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby polarbreeze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:50 am

Jerry wrote:Hi Polarbreeze!

You're doing exactly what I want the user to prevent from, in particular by finding a meaningful term for this feature: you're confusing score template with <Dokumentvorgabe>.

Here's the difference:...
OK, I see what you mean now. You want to do some kind of post-processing on an already existing Encore document. I think the term you're looking for is "document preset".
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