Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

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Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Andre » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:52 am

One of the elements which give the reader a "nice feeling" of a score is when spacing between staves, systems, and lyric lines, is stable and consistent.

For a "one staff per system" pieces, it is not too difficult to have regular spacing, since adjustments while CTRL is left pressed cause the placement to be repeated on the next systems.

With multiple lyric line, having an equal spacing of the lines can be done while working carefully, and having some automated method would already useful (at least a way to "see" the number of units in a vertical spacing).

When there are more staves (and 4 is typical for choral work) the same "need to work very carefully" applies on the distance from one staff to the upper one in the same system, and for the lyrics on every staff.

Of course, one always needs to "work carefully". But one could expect from a "computer assisted editor" to help the user's productivity by providing the tools...

For the case I describe, I would think of an option further to CTRL (could that be CTRL+SHIFT or CTRL+ALT?) where alignments would not only apply to furter systems, but also to further staves in the system, and dor further lyric lines in the staff?


Ideally, I would like a "center everything" action which would make everything automatically (on several pages) but I understand that it may as well be a headache to make, and never be satisfactory for everybody. So I tend to prefer "self-tuning bits" with larger ranges.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby anaigeon » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:59 pm

Depends what you're meaning by "spacing", more precisely : spacing between which objects (staves, bottom of text, etc).
Because in a book I have about notation, they say that a current error consists in keeping the same spacing everywhere
(the ambitus of parts might here and there, make stems go outside a staff, etc - they advise to take this in account).
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:49 pm

Hi André,

This is how it should work:
  • To change spacing of an object (system, staff, lyric line, chord line) to the staff above it, drag the object by its handle.
    • For lyric and chord lines, the yellow arrow is the handle.
    • For staves and systems, the handles are the left and right barlines.
  • To get that same spacing in all systems following the dragged object, hold [Ctrl] key (windows) or [Cmd] key (Mac) when dragging the object.

Eveline
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby q » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:12 pm

 
Nice ideas everyone.

Eveline I took the liberty to rephrase your concept of how "adjust all subsequent lyric lines" might work:

  • To change the vertical position of a lyric line, drag the yellow lyric line arrow. (already implemented)
  • To change the vertical position of a lyric line, and simultaneously adjust all subsequent lyric lines, hold [Ctrl] key (windows) or [Command] key (Mac) and drag the yellow arrow. (proposed feature)
In other words, just like dragging systems or staves:

  • To get that same spacing in all systems following the dragged object, hold [Ctrl] key (windows) or [Option] key (Mac) when dragging the object.
Eveline, I noticed in your post that you wrote "[Command] key (Mac)." I think this is how it should be. Presently the [Option] key serves this function on the Mac ... but option dragging often implies copying, so I'd prefer any other modifier, and [Command] is not taken.

Ultimately an Inspector would display leading (the vertical distance between text baselines) between a lyric line and the next, or between selected lyric lines. The Inspector value would reflect any change made by the actions described above. In kind, the user could set leading by altering the value in the Inspector.

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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Doug Kerr » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:47 pm

Hi, q,
q wrote: 

Eveline I took the liberty to rephrase your concept of how "adjust all subsequent lyric lines" might work:

  • To change the vertical position of a lyric line, drag the yellow lyric line arrow. (already implemented)

Today that also changes the position of all following lyric lines on the same staff (together), keeping the spacing among them however it was. Do you mean changing it to not work that way?

  • To change the vertical position of a lyric line, and simultaneously adjust all subsequent lyric lines, hold [Ctrl] key (windows) or [Command] key (Mac) and drag the yellow arrow. (proposed feature)

Today, if we use that maneuver, it moves the grabbed line, and all other lines below it on the same system (together), and does the same thing on all following systems. Is that what you mean?

  • To get that same spacing in all systems following the dragged object, hold [Ctrl] key (windows) or [Option] key (Mac) when dragging the object.

What spacing? The spacing between a lyric line and the staff above it, or the spacing between lyric lines? And how does this different-sounding thing happen with the same maneuver you described just above? What does objects mean? Lyric lines? Do you mean grabbing them but not their arrows?

How would we arrange for the spacing between multiple lyric lines on one system to be equal (on one system)? How would we make the spacing between the lyric line on a system to be equal, on that system and on all later systems?

There are more things to deal with in lyric lines what we deal with on staves!

This seems to be the taxonomy, for one system (I have compressed it slightly to be only comparable in flexibility to what we have now):

• Vertical position of one lyric line with respect to the staff above it
• Vertical position of a lyric line and higher-numbered ones subsequent ones (same system, remember)
• Spacing between for the space above the line being manipulated and all lower spaces (on the same system). [That is, moving line 3 would change these spacings to be the same: 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, etc.]

Then, we have the choice:
• Does this only happen on this system. or
• Does this also produce theh same result on all subsequent systems.

We can't put knobs on a number of faucets without first inventorying and clearly identifying the faucets!

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Andre » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:11 am

Denkster wrote:Hi André,

This is how it should work:
  • To change spacing of an object (system, staff, lyric line, chord line) to the staff above it, drag the object by its handle.
    • For lyric and chord lines, the yellow arrow is the handle.
    • For staves and systems, the handles are the left and right barlines.
  • To get that same spacing in all systems following the dragged object, hold [Ctrl] key (windows) or [Cmd] key (Mac) when dragging the object.

Eveline


Indeed Eveline, that's how it works indeed (and I think I mentioned it as CTRL - not familiar with Mac). I'm not saying it does not work - we are in feature request here - only that it's not sufficient for a productive nice alignment.

When I have four staves per system, and three verses of lyrics, I need to adjust the placement of lyric lines twelve times... the increments are small and not so visible. And with a big zoom it's not better.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Andre » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:19 am

anaigeon wrote:Depends what you're meaning by "spacing", more precisely : spacing between which objects (staves, bottom of text, etc).
Because in a book I have about notation, they say that a current error consists in keeping the same spacing everywhere
(the ambitus of parts might here and there, make stems go outside a staff, etc - they advise to take this in account).


Of course there are places where a special spacing is needed, when only a few notes in a piece are very low (or very high).

I'm looking forward to the possibility to set score-wide distances to give easily a nice look, leaving us the ability to adjust manually (afterwards) the spacing of some extreme elements.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:12 am

Hi André,
Andre wrote: it's not sufficient for a productive nice alignment.

When I have four staves per system, and three verses of lyrics, I need to adjust the placement of lyric lines twelve times... the increments are small and not so visible. And with a big zoom it's not better.
You are right!
I understand, the current arrangement is not sufficient.

Andre wrote:I'm looking forward to the possibility to set score-wide distances to give easily a nice look, leaving us the ability to adjust manually (afterwards) the spacing of some extreme elements.
Yes, that will be the right goal. I understood Matt plans to implement 'style sheets'; IMHO that would be the only clever way to approach this matter.

Eveline
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:19 am

Hi Doug Kerr, Q,

q wrote:Eveline, I noticed in your post that you wrote "[Command] key (Mac)." I think this is how it should be. Presently the [Option] key serves this function on the Mac ... but option dragging often implies copying, so I'd prefer any other modifier, and [Command] is not taken.
I made a mistake, I should have written [Option] instead of [Command], in describing current functionality. And indeed, in this case [Command] would have been better, because [Option]+drag always means 'copy'. Does nothing like this work on Mac?
Doug Kerr wrote:There are more things to deal with in lyric lines what we deal with on staves!

OK, I will be more precise.
  • To change the vertical distance to its staff of one lyric line for one staff in one system:
    1. in the Graphic palette, click the Lyric tool L
      The yellow lyric line arrow displays.
    2. Click in the staff of the system you need to change.
      The yellow lyric line arrow is shown at that staff.
    3. Click on the yellow arrow's lyric line number box,
      The lyric line number selection menu displays
    4. Select the number of the lyric line you need to change.
    5. Grab and drag the yellow lyric line arrow.
    The vertical distance to their staff, of the selected lyric line and all higher numbered lyric lines on the same staff (together) in that same system changes as expected.
The distance between selected lyric line and all higher numbered lyric lines remains as it was.
This prevents lines to drawn over each other.
(already implemented)
Doug Kerr wrote:Do you mean changing it to not work that way?
No.

  • To change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff, of one lyric line for one staff in the current and all subsequent systems:
      Step 1-4: see above.
      5. Hold [Ctrl] while grab and drag the yellow lyric line arrow.
    The vertical distance to their staff, of the selected lyric line and all higher numbered lyric lines on the same staff (together) in the current and all subsequent[/b] systems changes as expected.
The distance between selected lyric line and all higher numbered lyric lines remains as it was.
This prevents lines to drawn over each other.
(already implemented)

Doug Kerr wrote: (proposed feature)

How would we arrange for the spacing between multiple lyric lines on one system to be equal (on one system)? How would we make the spacing between the lyric line on a system to be equal, on that system and on all later systems?

Actually, I was not aware of proposing things, just described what I think is implemented.
But now you are suggesting it, I will try to invent some more problems. :)
  1. Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of one lyric line for all staves in one system:
  2. Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of one lyric line for all staves in the current and all subsequent systems:
  3. Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for one staff in one system:
  4. Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for one staff in the current and all subsequent systems:
  5. Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for all staves in one system:
  6. Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for all staves in the current and all subsequent systems:
In total 2 ^3 = 8 possibilities. Some maybe futile..

Doug Kerr wrote:What does objects mean?
I listed the objects that IMHO should obey to this behavior rules in the first line: system, staff, lyric line, chord line.
Doug Kerr wrote:Do you mean grabbing them but not their arrows?
No, I explicitly mentioned the handles for each object.
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Doug Kerr » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:34 am

Hi, Eveline,

Denkster wrote:Actually, I was not aware of proposing things, just described what I think is implemented.

I was responding to q's paraphrasing of your enumeration, and there were some "ambiguities" in it.

Denkster wrote:
Doug Kerr wrote:What does objects mean?
I listed the objects that IMHO should obey to this behavior rules in the first line: system, staff, lyric line, chord line.
Doug Kerr wrote:Do you mean grabbing them but not their arrows?
No, I explicitly mentioned the handles for each object.

Again, I was responding to q's paraphrase, which may not have included that definition (or I missed it).

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Andre » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:44 am

Denkster wrote:
  • To change the vertical distance to its staff of one lyric line for one staff in one system:
    1. in the Graphic palette, click the Lyric tool L
      The yellow lyric line arrow displays.
    2. Click in the staff of the system you need to change.
      The yellow lyric line arrow is shown at that staff.
    3. Click on the yellow arrow's lyric line number box,
      The lyric line number selection menu displays
    4. Select the number of the lyric line you need to change.
    5. Grab and drag the yellow lyric line arrow.


Actually, steps 2 to 4 can be combined into a single one:
  1. in the Graphics palette...
  2. Click on a word of the lyric line you need to change
    The yellow lyric line arrow is shown at that staff and shows the number of the selected lyric line
  3. Grab...
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Doug Kerr » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:49 am

The currently missing (and badly needed) ingredient in the present situation is the ability to, with one command, uniformly space the lyric lines under one system, or under all (probably meaning "all subsequent") systems.

That seems to be getting a little lost (and when it does appear, is often unclearly described) in the various elaborate discussions of gestures and results.

Doug
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Denkster » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:03 pm

Doug Kerr wrote:The currently missing (and badly needed) ingredient in the present situation is the ability to, with one command, uniformly space the lyric lines under one system, or under all (probably meaning "all subsequent") systems.

That seems to be getting a little lost (and when it does appear, is often unclearly described) in the various elaborate discussions of gestures and results.

True.
I enumerated 2^3 = 8 possible 'wishes'.
Two of them are covered (in Windows).
You want to add two more. But I'm not sure what you mean
  • Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for one staff in the current (and all subsequent) systems
    or
  • Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for all staves in the current (and all subsequent) systems:

Eveline
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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Doug Kerr » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:38 pm

Hi, Eveline,
[quote="Denkster"]
You want to add two more. But I'm not sure what you mean
  • Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for one staff in the current (and all subsequent) systems
  • Change - with the same amount - the vertical distance to their staff of all lyric lines for all staves in the current (and all subsequent) systems:
Not, not change the vertical position with (or by) the same amount - change to give the same interline spacing:

  • Change the spacing between all lyric lines on a staff of a system to be the same, on the current staff of the current system only
  • Change the spacing between all lyric lines on a staff of a system to be the same, on all staves of the current system only (to the same spacing)
  • Change the spacing between all lyric lines on a staff of a system to be the same, for the current staff of the current system and (to the same spacing) all subsequent systems
  • Change the spacing between all lyric lines on a staff of a system to be the same, for (to the same spacing) all staves of the current system and all subsequent systems
For consistency of outlook with other things we have, that should perhaps work so that if we grab, for example (under this mode) line 2, it will make the spacings 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 5-6, etc. all the same; if we grab, for example (under this mode) line 4, it will make spacings 3-4, 4-5, 5-6. etc. the same. (That is, in any case, "sameness of spacing" only propagates down, both in the local sense (over the lines on one staff) and, if applicable, globally (to include the line sets on subsequent staves, but still only the line spacings "above the grabbed line and lower").

    The seemingly over-complicated language (using "system" twice in each clause), is needed so this cannot imply setting the spacing between all lyric lines to be the same, which would mean the same spacing between line 5 and 6 on staff 1 and between line 6 on staff 1 and line 1 on staff 2 (which would of course be silly, but you know how I am about language of specifications).

    "Ollie, I'm going to hold this tent stake in place, and when I nod my head, hit it with that mallet."

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Re: Consistent spacing of multi-verse lyrics

Postby Jerry » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:25 am

Hi, everybody!

I'm already using the requested feature in a tool of my own, and I also would appreciate to have it in ENCORE itself.

Here's an example of its usage:

Suppose I have several files and wish to give them a consistent multiple line spacing (staves, chords, lyrics).

In case of a single voice arrangement I would apply these settings:

Settings_1.png
Settings_1.png (4.41 KiB) Viewed 2208 times

By checking <Auto> I get

a) the chords at a default value above the highest note
b) the lyrics at a default value below the lowest note

Result:

Yesterday_1.png
Yesterday_1.png (6.31 KiB) Viewed 2208 times
Last edited by Jerry on Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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